Martin... Not quite what I think either of us would have predicted would first be first w0rds Camping would speak in public with the passing of the 21st without event, but in general it seems to validate what you said in a previous comment, eh?
At least we'll get the summer in before the next predicted D-Day apocalyptic event. The end of October usually marks the first arrival of winter weather here in Mattawa... which as I age, seems to be as close to hell on earth as I would ever like to come. Heaven for me will not be snowy or cold!
Apocalypse pushed back to Oct. 21, preacher says - CTV News
At least we'll get the summer in before the next predicted D-Day apocalyptic event. The end of October usually marks the first arrival of winter weather here in Mattawa... which as I age, seems to be as close to hell on earth as I would ever like to come. Heaven for me will not be snowy or cold!
Apocalypse pushed back to Oct. 21, preacher says - CTV News
it is sad that this poor fellow must have no family or close friend that is willing to protect him in his frail and demented state...somebody is getting very wealthy off this nonsense and the media would do everyone a favor just to ignore his rantings.
ReplyDeleteTrue Mary. Not to mention he gives fuel to the detractors of Christianity with his bogus rapture claims. I'm sure he'll be featured prominently in the next anti-Christian Bill Maher flick.
ReplyDeleteCheers
Paul
Hi Tim,
ReplyDeleteIt seems Mr. Camping is adjusting his theology to conflict less with observed reality. We are now to believe that a "spritiual rapture" happended on May 21st rather than a literal rapture. Nice backtracking, no? See - he is learning the value of vague and non-specific religious claims.
Mark my words...Camping's prophetic failure will be spun until it is a success. He uses the same techniques as all other religious believers when they are punched in the face by reality.
And while we are on the topic...how do you square your own saviour's words regarding his mistaken prophecy on the end times?
Matthew, 16:28 "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Clearly, Jesus thought the end times would happen in the lifetime of his own apostles. Since his apostles are long dead, this demonstrates nicely that Jesus was just as wrong as Mr. Camping.
I now await the torrent of spinning on your part.
Cheers...Martin
Hi Martin,
ReplyDeleteNo torrent from me. That verse has always puzzled me. I know what the various commentaries offer, and some of their explanations are reasonable but not altogether convincing, at least for me. I think you'll understand if I also state that 'back in the day' Fr. Vince was not a great deal of help in making it clearer either.
I don't demand to understand every thing and every detail to believe as I do. I have sufficient understanding to rationally support my beliefs. Is that how your faith unraveled? It slow spun apart from not knowing the answers to detail like the quotation from Matthew?
Tim
Hi Tim,
ReplyDeleteI appreciate your honest response. In my opinion, the apologetics around MATT 16:28 raise as many new problems as they attempt to resolve. This is often the case with apologetics.
Christians ought to cut Mr. Camping some slack. After all, if Jesus got his end time prophecies wrong, then surely Mr. Camping is allowed to as well.
So to paraphrase, you simply ignore the contradiction and move on. Fair enough I suppose..if this were the only biblical inconsistency...but we both know it is not. The bible is literally filled with contradictions and inconsistencies from one end to the other. To me that makes the bible a whole lot more like any other collection of writings by mortal and fallible men, and much less like something that was inspired by a perfect being.
As for my own deconversion, there was no single thing or event that led me to this conclusion. It was an accumulation of things that did not "fit". Ironically, it was on a Good Friday 6 years ago that I had my eureka moment. With no work and no shopping I had the luxury of taking a whole day just to think and to relfect. This was the day that I admitted to myself that I was an atheist. As I reflected on the meaning of the day, on the events of my life, and on what I had learned so far in my life, I acknoweldged that everything fit better with the proposition that there is no god as opposed to the proposition that there is a god. The conclusion seemed so blindingly obvious, I now wonder how it could have taken me so long to reach it.
In truth Tim, it was if a dark cloud had been lifted from me. For the first time in many years I felt more whole, happier, and at peace in my realization that I was an atheist. I have to admit, my reaction seemed counter-intuitive even to me. But there you have it - that is my story. Maybe others come to atheism differently, and why not? We are all different.
Enjoyed the chat. Have a great day.
Cheers...Martin
Martin..ty for sharing so honestly..i have often wondered if i could believe there was no God that life would be so much easier..if there is no God then there is nothing beyond this life(and that frightens me)so i have absolutely no necessity to be just or nice or polite and i damm well better get everything i can and have no regard at whose expense i do it since i am going this way only once...i suspect someone or some circumstance has hurt u so badly that on Good Friday u and Jesus said"My God My God why have u forsaken me". We need to see Good Friday in conjunction with Easter Sunday and His promise of salvation..I hope Father Tim or a loving friend will help ausage that hurt for you:))
ReplyDeleteHugggs
Hi Mary,
ReplyDeleteMost of us will face death at some point in our lives - our own and that of others.
My own death does not bother me so much, as I will be dead and I will cease to worry or to have any fear. The death of loved ones around me is admittedly harder to accept - but I am no worse off than someone who belives in an afterlife. Like most religious believers, I miss my loved ones just as keenly - and like them, there is absolutely nothing I can do to bring them back. Not sure that believing that I will see them again in the next life is ever a real tonic to grief. Anyhow, it never was to me.
As to whether or not one can be good without a belief in god, I would argue that it is possible. I know many good and trustworthy atheists, and I also know many scoundrels who are religious believers. I am not suggesting that all atheists are good, or that all religious folks are bad - I am simply pointing out that human goodness has very little to do with the presence or absence of religious beliefs.
I could bore you with my musings about an ethical model for non-believers that is every bit as sound (and maybe even superior) as a theistic ethical model...but in the end, I find such things are more academic than real.
Lastly, the hurts and wounds I have borne over the years are no worse than those experienced by many other folks. In fact, I know many people who have had similar experiences in life and they are quite religious.
I appreciate your comments, and I offer mine only to dispell some common stereotypes about atheists. I don't look to convert others to atheism, but I will challenge religious beliefs/ideas that I know to be flawed or broken. I recognize that religion is very important to some individuals, and that it has the power to be a good and a bad influence on the world. My hope is that by challenging flawed or broken religious ideas, I can help religion to be more of a good influence on the world than it oftentimes is.
Admittedly, this is a lofty goal on my part, but I do feel an imperative to try to leave this world slightly better off than when I entered it. Where there is common ground, I invite all people of goodwill to do the same - regardless of the content of their religious beliefs.
Surely, that is something we can all support?
Cheers...Martin
Martin
ReplyDeletei agree with u ..i think all of us want our legacy to be that we made a difference and a difference for the better..i agree with u that there are good and bad in both believers and non believers (Jesus had an apostle that betrayed Him and 1 that denied Him)and i hope u will never stop challenging us to be the very best we can be and i do see Jesus in you....Hugggs,Mary