The May 2010 Euthanasia Prevention Coalition Newsletter can now be found at: http://www.euthanasiaprevention.on.ca/Newsletters/Newsletter108(May2010)(RGB).pdf Bill C-384 was soundly defeated by a vote of 228 to 59. Check how the Members of Parliament voted at: http://www.euthanasiaprevention.on.ca/HowTheyVoted.pdf On June 5, 2010, we are co-hosting the US/Canda Push-Back Seminar at the Radisson Gateway Hotel at the Seattle/Tacoma Airport. The overwhelming defeat of Bill C-384 proved that we can Push-Back the euthanasia lobby in the US and Canada and convince people that euthanasia and assisted suicide are a dangerous public policy. Register for the Seminar at: http://www.euthanasiaprevention.on.ca/2010SeminarFlyer(RGB)(LetterFormat).pdf The Schindler family are being attacked by a Florida television station and Michael Schiavo. The Euthanasia Prevention Coalition is standing in solidarity with the Schindler family. My blog comments: http://alexschadenberg.blogspot.com/2010/05/att...
I've never heard any reasonable argument that claimed that any cell in anything ( pregnant or not) is not life. I've heard arguments to support a claim that at certain stages the living cells constitute potentially a human being - not actually. The argument above is a straw man fallacy. Do you not trust the truth? Is your quest for the truth or is it simply a quest for power and control?
ReplyDeleteLarry: What is this fixation you have with the power/control paradigm? It seems to be running through all of your recent comments. To ask questions (as this meme does) or to posit something as being true (or not) is not necessarily indicative of a desire to control or exercise power over anyone. I'm puzzled in trying to understand the argument you're putting forward.
ReplyDeleteFr. Tim
P.S. As a corollary, to the above, is it possible in your opinion to state that something is true or not in the field of morality without it being an exercise in power, or is everything relative and up to person to judge for themselves?
DeleteTim, the fixation with the power/control paradigm that you see through my comments have their origin rooted in your psyche. To ask questions in order to explore and uncover the truth is probably the best of all activities that human beings can undertake. To ask questions in the way that you do through this meme does not have the same character of such noble activity. This question contains the implicit premise that those who disagree with your view on the abortion issue believe that the cells in the womb of a pregnant woman is not considered life. That's a lie. This question is not designed to explore or uncover the truth , it is a presupposition of the truth and its intent is to judge and condemn others who disagree.
DeleteThe fact that you are so baffled Tim is not surprising to me at all, but do remember that this is a blog site and other people who may visit and who may be less judgmental than you are may have no trouble at all understanding comments that question the truth and the intent of yours.
P.S. No one ever possesses the truth. It is possible to make statements that you believe represent the truth ' in the field of morality.' It isn't possible to be certain about anything, much less 'answers' concerning morality. To be bent ( in the name of Christ) on elevating a universal moral law ( an idea) higher in value than a human heart is warped, is in direct opposition to the way in which Jesus Christ lived his life and is nothing more than a quest for power and control which are a natural consequence of ideology. Jesus spent his whole time here on earth removing the commandments from stone and from the power thirsty and judgmental human heads in order to re-inscribe them into the human heart for the human heart.
He has a very special love and embrace for all those that you judge.
Larry: Thank you for your reply. Evidently we see these things differently. May I suggest that St. Thomas Aquinas may have had it right when he wrote:
DeleteThe existence of truth is self-evident. For whoever denies the existence of truth grants that truth does not exist: and, if truth does not exist, then the proposition ‘Truth does not exist’ is true: and if there is anything true, there must be truth.
—St. Thomas Aquinas
I guess then the question comes down to 'what's truth?' In the context of this discussion that would mean that there is a true answer to what constitutes 'life'. You claim that most people who disagree with my view on abortion would accept that these 'womb cells' as life. This has not been my experience. Most such folks I've encountered start from the presumption that an abortion is acceptable because it is not 'life' that's being terminated but a simply a 'collection of cells'. Again Larry I state without reservation that almost all abortion advocates I have encountered have argued that this is so. IMHO, that's a convenient but illogical supposition used to deny the fact that it is indeed a life being terminated.
This is why I believe the meme this post conveys is indeed true and not an attempt to control. Is it an attempt to try to convince? YES. Without question it is. But that's a far thing indeed from trying to control.
Finally, as regards your post-script, I again disagree. Jesus was not a moral relativist. There is nothing is scripture or tradition that would substantiate such an assertion. He never condemned a person... that's true. But he clearly stated that there were actions that were condemnable.
Again, thanks for the reply. You gave me much to ponder and reflect on... and that is ALWAY a good thing IMHO. All the best.
Fr. Tim
ReplyDeleteTim, nowhere have I asserted explicitly nor implicitly that I believe ‘truth’ exists only in the mind of the one who perceives. I have in fact stated emphatically and implicitly that I believe the truth is a self subsisting and objective entity independent from the mind. ( I would not…by the way… base such a belief in the argument you cited from St Thomas though…one of his very weak arguments which does not make for a very solid footing on such a crucial fundamental principle)
Your ‘pondering‘, however, has led you to recognize the fact that “ evidently we see things differently” which does vaguely demonstrate my point.
“That brings us to the question of what is truth then” , you say. I ask then Tim, are these ‘things’ we see differently the same truth? Are the things you see ‘ the’ truth and the things I see illusion? Or vice versa? Is either one of us in possession of the truth? Or is the truth something different and independent from both of us? Is the truth not something more than our thoughts about it and is not beyond our capacity to understand completely? Is the Truth not the Life that resides (not in the ego) but deep within the heart of human beings? ( By heart I mean not some vague set of emotions but the core of our being.) Isn’t the Truth hidden behind all the barriers that we create from the time we are born and throughout life by our natural defence mechanisms? And covered up by the literally thousands of prejudices and complexes we have developed throughout our lives? Hidden behind all the assumptions we have falsely built foundations on ? Before we can say with certainty that we see or speak the truth in this particular context or in any context at all we will have to be sure that we have dismantled all ( or at least have begun the process) these and many other barriers between our thinking head and the Truth and it’s emanation of life from the heart.
I don’t know if Jesus was a ‘moral relativist’ or not , everything about his life though demonstrates very clearly that he was -and indeed is- much more concerned about the fundamental needs of individual human beings than about philosophy. He continuously called on those who were certain to drop their prejudices, to let go of their pre-conceived notions. To be re-born. To listen to the truth with a new blank slate, with mind filled wonder of a little child instead of the ‘educated’ , ‘intelligent’ mind of an adult who already knows the truth. He shows us that way to serve the needs of humanity is to serve the need of the individual human being.
BTW, there sure is nothing relative in the way that for the first and only time throughout the Gospels , he revealed his secret name to the woman he met at the well. He said “ I AM speaks to you now.” Which means that He IS life and He IS truth. We RECEIVE life , God IS life.
Fr. Tim.
ReplyDeleteInteresting article on this subject - http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/03/11/yes-there-are-pro-life-atheists-out-there-heres-why-im-one-of-them/