Below you will find an exchange of comments between someone identified as Hunter902 and myself in the comments thread that follows the "Two Catholic Churches" story in the National Post by Philip Mathias. I offer this exchange not as any sort of proof of the persuasiveness of my arguments, but simply to point out that by engaging in the debate in that forum, we can bring forth elements that may lead to a cleansing of the church, and more importantly perhaps a healing for victims in the experience of being able to have their voices heard. The first few posts were not directed at each other, but they are necessary to understand the context in which we are both writing.
Fr. Tim
-------------------------------
1. by hunter902
Nov 07 2009
2:42 PM
Ecellent article Matthew,
There is a very distinct difference in bashing an organization filled with hypocracy, filled with disrespect and contempt for those who choose this as their faith, and those who follow its doctrine. You've clarified it for them beautifully.
Their own teachings say no one NO ONE is above reproach, is above erring as humans except God. The pope and his posse seem to conveniently forget this.
To call them out on arrogant and unlawful behaviours is just as right and fair as all the other religious organizations that scrutinized for actions that hurt not only their followers, but non believers too.
To accept blindly that the catholic organization should not be held to the highest standards that they themselves preach is to be naiive. They look after themselves, their institution and can only grow stronger by recruiting into their fold the most vulnerable in society.
When the followers do not, WILL NOT demand better of their leaders, corrupt and abusive behaviour continues. What I will never understand is why they won't. Why do they alow their children to be put at risk? There is a difference in having complete faith in God, and having complete faith in fallible men - which is what the pope and his crew are. I've seen first hand the level of abuse put upon children, while the church looked away. Catholic believers should be the first and loudest to hold these abusers accountable, and they should not be shielded from the full force of the law. Since they won't, there's nothing wrong with others bringing it to light on behalf of all those victimized by this organization
2. by Fr. Tim
Nov 07 2009
3:12 PM
The allure of this duplicitous argument is that it opens the possibility in the minds of believers that they can attack one while remaining faithful to the other. Alas he undermines his own argument by proceeding to venture into the realm of defined teaching of the Church (Assumption of the Blessed Virgin, infallibility of the Holy Father in matters of faith and morals) and denouncing them as simple constructs of the hierarchy of the church. In doing so, he breaches his own arbitrary division of the church into two forms by questioning what the church actually believes and equating it with the malfeasance of Bishops who improperly dealt with the spate of sex abuse scandals that have been exposed in the past 20+ years.
Whereas it is possible to offer criticism of the hierarchy and remain united with the Church (at least I hope so as I and others have been pounding away at Bishops for their mishandling of the sex abuse scandal, as well as forgoing their obligation to preach and teach the truths of our faith using the various secular medias of the day), it is quite another thing to pick and choose dogmas that the Church holds. Mathias in his argument is revealed to be among those who practice the latter in lieu of the former.
3. by hunter902
Nov 07 2009
3:40 PM
@Daniel,
it really isn't about "is there more, or is there less" sex abuse within the confines of the churches. That it is happening at all in a church, with it's leaders condoning it by moving these predators around for fresh meat is what is disgusting. The difference is that outside the church, the laws allow us to put them in jail and keep communities safer.
Apologists and defenders lack the moral fibre to do what is right. When those within and outside the church righteously stand to rid the corrupt behaviours in the catholic church, I'd be willing to bet the farm you'd see far less criticism, if at all.
Churches and their leaders hold themselves to the highest of moral standards. If they do not practice what they preach, it makes them and the organization they represent simply hypocritical, and unworthy of respect.
Respect is earned, not dictated--whether or not one is a catholic. I, and obviously many others,won't be told to respect an establishment that encourages sexual abuse of children. If catholics want less criticism, blinders need to be taken off, sleeves rolled up, and clean that house top to bottom of all those WITHIN the church that are making it a mockery.
4. by Fr. Tim
Nov 07 2009
4:28 PM
Hunter902: You write...
"I, and obviously many others,won't be told to respect an establishment that encourages sexual abuse of children. If catholics want less criticism, blinders need to be taken off, sleeves rolled up, and clean that house top to bottom of all those WITHIN the church that are making it a mockery."
I have no problem whatsoever with the second sentence of your comment, but your accusation that the church encourages sexual abuse of children is clearly "off the wall."
PLEASE do not tarnish the efforts of the people who are trying to do what you wish in confronting this evil within our church with such a hateful and unfounded statement.
5. by hunter902
Nov 07 2009
5:02 PM
fr. tim,
when church officials place priests in different communities knowing that they have been abusing children, then YES IT DOES ENCOURAGE SEXUAL ABUSE. Just because you don't like seeing the truth, doesn't mean it's a lie.
MY statement is off the wall?!?! Your denial that it is still happening today is off the wall. Allowing innocent children to be the prey for pedophiles your organization keeps on with the title of priest is off the wall.
Once the victims find their way out of their predator's hands, it takes them most of the rest of their lives to put the pieces back together.
I'm saving my empathy and respect for them. The church and all of its hypocracy is worthy of the contempt and scorn it receives.
Perhaps your time would be spent more wisely in helping the victims your church enabled creating, and less time posting defense of their obvious sin.
6. by Fr. Tim
Nov 07 2009
5:27 PM
Hunter902: I spend time virtually every day assisting and helping victims of this abuse. My blog has been a conduit by which I get contacted. I have also worked within my own diocese to rid ourselves of perverts. Further to that, I worked as a protection worker with the Children's Aid Society for a number of years before I entered the seminary working to prosecute anyone who abuses children.
So to every point you make, I have done all that I can to address this issue, with particular care for the victims. My experience as priest and social worker validates what I write here.
So you tell me: what have you done to address this problem, aside from spreading false allegations against the Church that I, and millions of other Catholics believe in?
I have walked the walk. You seem to talk the talk. How about putting your words into concrete action to protecting the vulnerable in our society?
Fr. Tim Moyle
7. by hunter902
Nov 07 2009
6:15 PM
I'm glad to hear fr tim that you are doing what you can.
My part?? I'm just one of the many trying to overcome the abuse inflicted on me. I ran sports camps for kids like me, to give them a safe place to be, to talk if and when they needed, support and resources. One more than one occasion, I've outed these predators in the communities they were dumped in.
My scars won't heal. Neither will theirs. But we encourage each other not to be "lifelong victims". We choose to identify the predators and the church that enabled them as the bad ones, instead of ourselves. We choose to live the rest of our lives with respect and dignity for ourselves, and those in our society, unlike the treatment we received by an institution that was supposed to be a safe place for us.
Most of all, we've learned that only by taking responsibility for our own actions, can we ever try and rise above the pain and indignity visited upon us.
It is my responsibility to myself, to my community to put to public scrutiny the hypocracy of this organization, and any other institution that pontificates about their "canon of ethics", while doing harm.
I respect that this is your faith, your calling, but I can not, and will not respect anyone trying to cover up, defend or be indifferent to the hideousness that STILL exists within the catholic hierarchy.
8. by Fr. Tim
Nov 07 2009
6:28 PM
hunter902: Thank you for what you are doing for other victims and for yourself as well.
The church MUST be willing to face legitimate criticism such as your last post. I applaud your effort for it is in no way in opposition to mine, and that of many, many others.
All that I ask is that you not throw out the "baby with the bathwater". Yes criticize and even condemn evil wherever it exists. Just know that there are priests and bishops within the church doing all that we can to respond in the manner that is called for in ridding the church of this scourge, just as you would want.
Again, thank you. Your contribution to this thread is gratefully received and appreciated by at least one priest of the church - me.
Fr. Tim Moyle
Mattawa, Ontario
9. by hunter902
Nov 07 2009
7:06 PM
fr,
there are those within the church that work tirelessly to expose the evil within. For myself, and the kids I work with, they have our respect.
I've no beef against you personally. But you and all other catholics MUST understand that speaking out in defense of the church, calling down those who have excellent and righteous reasons for calling out the evil that remains in the church, are excacerbating further the pain and anguish those that have been abused are still suffering with. For the very youngest that have been abused, it entrenches the guilt they feel that the abuse was their fault. There are millions defending blindly, the church and its hierarchy. It adds insult to injury.
My condemnation is, and always will be, for injustices being perpetrated and covered up, or defended.
People who practice whatever faith they have with peace, tolerance and respect for other human beings never fall within that realm.
If our interaction on this thread can be used for your blog to remind your readers that they need to be careful in how they defend their church or beliefs without marginalizing or being indifferent to their fellow human beings who have suffered terribly, then I'm glad as well.
10. by Fr. Tim
Nov 07 2009
8:27 PM
Hunter902: I have posted our entire exchange on my blog, precisely in the hope that as you concluded your last post to me, it will serve as a reminder that we who defend the church in forums such as these must be mindful of not marginalizing or heaping further abuse upon people who have been victimized.
Once again, my deep and profound thanks for this exchange.
Fr. Tim Moyle
11. by hunter902
Nov 07 2009
9:03 PM
I appreciate your being gracious enough to see that my passionate views are there as a voice and reminder for those who cannot yet speak out for themselves.
Though I've no faith in religions as an institution, my faith is strong that each of us have it within to be decent, giving and generous in spirit.
I wish you much success fr. tim.
Fr. Tim
-------------------------------
1. by hunter902
Nov 07 2009
2:42 PM
Ecellent article Matthew,
There is a very distinct difference in bashing an organization filled with hypocracy, filled with disrespect and contempt for those who choose this as their faith, and those who follow its doctrine. You've clarified it for them beautifully.
Their own teachings say no one NO ONE is above reproach, is above erring as humans except God. The pope and his posse seem to conveniently forget this.
To call them out on arrogant and unlawful behaviours is just as right and fair as all the other religious organizations that scrutinized for actions that hurt not only their followers, but non believers too.
To accept blindly that the catholic organization should not be held to the highest standards that they themselves preach is to be naiive. They look after themselves, their institution and can only grow stronger by recruiting into their fold the most vulnerable in society.
When the followers do not, WILL NOT demand better of their leaders, corrupt and abusive behaviour continues. What I will never understand is why they won't. Why do they alow their children to be put at risk? There is a difference in having complete faith in God, and having complete faith in fallible men - which is what the pope and his crew are. I've seen first hand the level of abuse put upon children, while the church looked away. Catholic believers should be the first and loudest to hold these abusers accountable, and they should not be shielded from the full force of the law. Since they won't, there's nothing wrong with others bringing it to light on behalf of all those victimized by this organization
2. by Fr. Tim
Nov 07 2009
3:12 PM
The allure of this duplicitous argument is that it opens the possibility in the minds of believers that they can attack one while remaining faithful to the other. Alas he undermines his own argument by proceeding to venture into the realm of defined teaching of the Church (Assumption of the Blessed Virgin, infallibility of the Holy Father in matters of faith and morals) and denouncing them as simple constructs of the hierarchy of the church. In doing so, he breaches his own arbitrary division of the church into two forms by questioning what the church actually believes and equating it with the malfeasance of Bishops who improperly dealt with the spate of sex abuse scandals that have been exposed in the past 20+ years.
Whereas it is possible to offer criticism of the hierarchy and remain united with the Church (at least I hope so as I and others have been pounding away at Bishops for their mishandling of the sex abuse scandal, as well as forgoing their obligation to preach and teach the truths of our faith using the various secular medias of the day), it is quite another thing to pick and choose dogmas that the Church holds. Mathias in his argument is revealed to be among those who practice the latter in lieu of the former.
3. by hunter902
Nov 07 2009
3:40 PM
@Daniel,
it really isn't about "is there more, or is there less" sex abuse within the confines of the churches. That it is happening at all in a church, with it's leaders condoning it by moving these predators around for fresh meat is what is disgusting. The difference is that outside the church, the laws allow us to put them in jail and keep communities safer.
Apologists and defenders lack the moral fibre to do what is right. When those within and outside the church righteously stand to rid the corrupt behaviours in the catholic church, I'd be willing to bet the farm you'd see far less criticism, if at all.
Churches and their leaders hold themselves to the highest of moral standards. If they do not practice what they preach, it makes them and the organization they represent simply hypocritical, and unworthy of respect.
Respect is earned, not dictated--whether or not one is a catholic. I, and obviously many others,won't be told to respect an establishment that encourages sexual abuse of children. If catholics want less criticism, blinders need to be taken off, sleeves rolled up, and clean that house top to bottom of all those WITHIN the church that are making it a mockery.
4. by Fr. Tim
Nov 07 2009
4:28 PM
Hunter902: You write...
"I, and obviously many others,won't be told to respect an establishment that encourages sexual abuse of children. If catholics want less criticism, blinders need to be taken off, sleeves rolled up, and clean that house top to bottom of all those WITHIN the church that are making it a mockery."
I have no problem whatsoever with the second sentence of your comment, but your accusation that the church encourages sexual abuse of children is clearly "off the wall."
PLEASE do not tarnish the efforts of the people who are trying to do what you wish in confronting this evil within our church with such a hateful and unfounded statement.
5. by hunter902
Nov 07 2009
5:02 PM
fr. tim,
when church officials place priests in different communities knowing that they have been abusing children, then YES IT DOES ENCOURAGE SEXUAL ABUSE. Just because you don't like seeing the truth, doesn't mean it's a lie.
MY statement is off the wall?!?! Your denial that it is still happening today is off the wall. Allowing innocent children to be the prey for pedophiles your organization keeps on with the title of priest is off the wall.
Once the victims find their way out of their predator's hands, it takes them most of the rest of their lives to put the pieces back together.
I'm saving my empathy and respect for them. The church and all of its hypocracy is worthy of the contempt and scorn it receives.
Perhaps your time would be spent more wisely in helping the victims your church enabled creating, and less time posting defense of their obvious sin.
6. by Fr. Tim
Nov 07 2009
5:27 PM
Hunter902: I spend time virtually every day assisting and helping victims of this abuse. My blog has been a conduit by which I get contacted. I have also worked within my own diocese to rid ourselves of perverts. Further to that, I worked as a protection worker with the Children's Aid Society for a number of years before I entered the seminary working to prosecute anyone who abuses children.
So to every point you make, I have done all that I can to address this issue, with particular care for the victims. My experience as priest and social worker validates what I write here.
So you tell me: what have you done to address this problem, aside from spreading false allegations against the Church that I, and millions of other Catholics believe in?
I have walked the walk. You seem to talk the talk. How about putting your words into concrete action to protecting the vulnerable in our society?
Fr. Tim Moyle
7. by hunter902
Nov 07 2009
6:15 PM
I'm glad to hear fr tim that you are doing what you can.
My part?? I'm just one of the many trying to overcome the abuse inflicted on me. I ran sports camps for kids like me, to give them a safe place to be, to talk if and when they needed, support and resources. One more than one occasion, I've outed these predators in the communities they were dumped in.
My scars won't heal. Neither will theirs. But we encourage each other not to be "lifelong victims". We choose to identify the predators and the church that enabled them as the bad ones, instead of ourselves. We choose to live the rest of our lives with respect and dignity for ourselves, and those in our society, unlike the treatment we received by an institution that was supposed to be a safe place for us.
Most of all, we've learned that only by taking responsibility for our own actions, can we ever try and rise above the pain and indignity visited upon us.
It is my responsibility to myself, to my community to put to public scrutiny the hypocracy of this organization, and any other institution that pontificates about their "canon of ethics", while doing harm.
I respect that this is your faith, your calling, but I can not, and will not respect anyone trying to cover up, defend or be indifferent to the hideousness that STILL exists within the catholic hierarchy.
8. by Fr. Tim
Nov 07 2009
6:28 PM
hunter902: Thank you for what you are doing for other victims and for yourself as well.
The church MUST be willing to face legitimate criticism such as your last post. I applaud your effort for it is in no way in opposition to mine, and that of many, many others.
All that I ask is that you not throw out the "baby with the bathwater". Yes criticize and even condemn evil wherever it exists. Just know that there are priests and bishops within the church doing all that we can to respond in the manner that is called for in ridding the church of this scourge, just as you would want.
Again, thank you. Your contribution to this thread is gratefully received and appreciated by at least one priest of the church - me.
Fr. Tim Moyle
Mattawa, Ontario
9. by hunter902
Nov 07 2009
7:06 PM
fr,
there are those within the church that work tirelessly to expose the evil within. For myself, and the kids I work with, they have our respect.
I've no beef against you personally. But you and all other catholics MUST understand that speaking out in defense of the church, calling down those who have excellent and righteous reasons for calling out the evil that remains in the church, are excacerbating further the pain and anguish those that have been abused are still suffering with. For the very youngest that have been abused, it entrenches the guilt they feel that the abuse was their fault. There are millions defending blindly, the church and its hierarchy. It adds insult to injury.
My condemnation is, and always will be, for injustices being perpetrated and covered up, or defended.
People who practice whatever faith they have with peace, tolerance and respect for other human beings never fall within that realm.
If our interaction on this thread can be used for your blog to remind your readers that they need to be careful in how they defend their church or beliefs without marginalizing or being indifferent to their fellow human beings who have suffered terribly, then I'm glad as well.
10. by Fr. Tim
Nov 07 2009
8:27 PM
Hunter902: I have posted our entire exchange on my blog, precisely in the hope that as you concluded your last post to me, it will serve as a reminder that we who defend the church in forums such as these must be mindful of not marginalizing or heaping further abuse upon people who have been victimized.
Once again, my deep and profound thanks for this exchange.
Fr. Tim Moyle
11. by hunter902
Nov 07 2009
9:03 PM
I appreciate your being gracious enough to see that my passionate views are there as a voice and reminder for those who cannot yet speak out for themselves.
Though I've no faith in religions as an institution, my faith is strong that each of us have it within to be decent, giving and generous in spirit.
I wish you much success fr. tim.
Excellent interaction Fr. Tim.
ReplyDelete"Whatever you do to the least of these little children, you do also to me."
Thank you for the lesson in seeing Jesus in others.
God Bless You
Michael Brandon