Secondly, how about the effect of a Christian witness on the gay kids? If leaders and scouts are living a Christian life, their values may be taken up by others who witness their love for each other.
Finally, they are throwing out the baby with the bath water. Scouting has benefited untold numbers of kids over the generations. It is an evident and obvious good. Why would Baptist parents deny their kids that experience just because they might encounter the same gay kids they live and work with each day in other milieus? It doesn't make sense to me.
Baptists plan exodus from Boy Scouts – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs
The Baptists are taking this good stance because they are better trained, and in many ways, more intelligent than many Canadian Priests.
ReplyDeleteThey believe the Word of God, and try to live it and teach it.
Nowadays, many in the Catholic Church are being fed pap and nonsense by their clergy. This sounds like more of it .
I am a Scout leader here in Canada and I could care less the sexuality of my Scouts. It just isn't an issue and I would refuse to discriminate against any Scout for any reason. These are children for goodness sake and they don't need our prejudices imposed upon them. I feel sorry for the children of those Baptists who will miss out on Scouts but I also feel sorry for all those Scouts who missed out on Scouts because they were gay or people thought they were gay. The Scouting experience is much too important for kids to have us adults ruin it for them.
ReplyDeleteTracey: It's not Rationalist who's being irrational. Remember that the gay kids in scouts are the same one's that your kid has played with since kindergarten if not earlier. They are no more a danger in a scout troop than they would be in a school. I do hope you've taken notice of the fact that the Boy Scouts are not moving to accept gay troop leaders.That's a different question entirely. It has decided to let gay kids become scout members. That's all.
DeleteThere is simply no rational basis for your concern that children are put at risk by this decision.
Want to argue that there is a 'gay agenda' that is being promoted in our country? Go right ahead. I agree with you. I think any rational person looking over the changes in the past 10 years would have to come to the same decision. This blog is dedicated to just such discussions. But it is not here to spread ill-informed, harmful comments that distort what that agenda actually is.
Fr. Tim
Tracey - Scouts Canada provides and requires extensive training on how to look out for abuse and not allow abuse situations. In the case of any abuse, you are to make two phone calls, the first to the police and then, and only then, to Scouts Canada. All leaders are subject to extensive checks including police and fingerprint checks that must be renewed frequently.
DeleteThere are gay scouts, always have been, even in those Baptist troops. All this ruling is saying is they won't be forced out because of some one finding out they are gay.
No one has their rights diminished and if you think they do find a child who's been kick out of an organization because of their sexuality and tell them how your rights demand they are excluded.
Father, it is difficult to understand that just a few inches above this article on your blog you quote Ronal Regan say he noticed that all the people clamoring for abortion are already born.
ReplyDeleteThe same path to logic is here- I notice, with some glaring exceptions, that those people clamoring for gay rights were all born of parents who were not gay, even Rationalist, and yourself.
Besides the lunatics that make up the Hollywood scene, the NDP, and some Liberal politicians, there are not many others push this extreme.
We once had capital punishment in Canada for Treason- I wish it was back. These people who do this are committing Treason against their own families- Bob Rae excepted.
I have had enough, I will leave this battle to someone else, An atheist and a Catholic Priest agreeing in any way with even discussing this matter boggles the mind. GOODBYE !
"that those people clamoring for gay rights were all born of parents who were not gay," Not necessarily. Even in my lifetime (and I'm not that old) homosexuality was an indictable offense.
DeleteNow I don't understand homosexuality and I've never been so inclined but I respect and defend the rights of those who do.
Fr. Tim - I appreciate you let me comment here. I have benefited and learned in the dialogue from you and other posters. I hope in some small way that people like Tracy will learn that atheist have many things in common with people of faith (say the God issue). Also as more and more of society is becoming, if not atheists, then people who, for better or worse, are not religious, we'll have to learn to get along. I grew up Catholic in an area of Canada that was very anti-Catholic and know what it's like to be discriminated against. I swore then and I stand by it now that I would not countenance any discrimination against an individual or group.
ReplyDeleteI partly became a Scout leader when the troop my son joined refused admission to a scout for a totally prejudicial reason. I become a leader (my five years in the military reserve with extensive bush training thrilled them) and the next year I personally invited that boy back to join. That boy benefited greatly from Scouts and every child should have that same opportunity.
If however, Fr. Tim, your parishioners complain to your bishop and you wish me to stop posting here I will.
The God issue? what kind of B S is that.
DeleteGod is not an issue- he is the Creator, and if anyone on this blog thinks otherwise, then the blog has nothing to do with Christianity.
All of the rambling thoughts of Rationalist try to prove God does not exist.
Come Lord Jesus, Come- and make him see the difference Truth makes.
I'm not trying to prove that God does not exist. Indeed most philosophers would say that's impossible. And save (I mistyped "say" previously) the "God issue", you'll probably find you have a lot in common with non believers, as indeed you do with gays. You don't have to agree with them or accept their actions, but you need to accept them as people.
DeleteFr. Tim describes himself as an Evangelical Catholic Priest which means one goes out and preaches, not to the converted, but to the world meeting people where they are. Like St. Paul going to Athens to preach to the pagans, here's his opportunity to do the same (and save an airline ticket).
Rationalist: You are always most welcome here. When I started this blog it was intended as a place where people of different convictions could debate and discuss current issues that touch on religious faith. You have never failed to be polite, cogent, and civil with your contributions... something that some of my fellow Christians seem to have trouble accomplishing. I think that part of their issue is that they have yet to learn how to actually address the points you raise which seems to frustrate them, too often provoking some very un-Christian comments. If there has been any error, it's not yours to correct.
DeleteFr. Tim
Thank you for your kind words.
DeleteI can relate to the frustration with encountering someone with different world views and different sexuality as I was once there myself. I remember the first non believer I met in High School and how shocked all of us were at his non belief. It did unite the rest of us Catholics and Protestants against him.
Also another good friend of mine in High School I found out much later after I lost contact with him was gay and died of AIDS. I regret all the disparaging homosexual remarks I made around him. It was the high school culture of the time, trying to prove how hetero we all were, but it was wrong.
I don't see the comments as un-Christian, but as you said a frustration that's all to human.
Fr Moyle, if you get up much closer with Rationalist, you will be in one of his pockets.
ReplyDeleteYou play the part of the abused blogger, except, you do it on his part.
Where do you get off criticizing Christians and their comments, and welcome those of a friend of yours, who is AGAINST any Christian Church?
Wake up Father, and smell the real coffee!
Judy,
DeleteFr. Tim is not in my pocket. He's his own person and stands up for the teaching of the Catholic faith. But as he says he's an evangelical priests that goes out into the modern agora and witnesses his faith. Obviously we don't agree but and I would have thought that my positions on many social topics would differ from his, but where we do have differences, we do have much in common. But that's not us, that's people in general.If we listen we find the "other" is more like us than we imagine.
As to being "AGAINST any Christian Church", I'm not sure what you mean. I'm an atheist and do not believe in God but that doesn't make me against churches at all. I only object to religions when they seek to impose their beliefs on society as a whole.
I commented on this topic because it is one that is important to me and to help alleviate any concerns parents may have about Scouting. It's a great organization and I would encourage every boy and girl to try it. As I tell my troop, the adventures they have in Scouts, they'll tell their children and grandchildren about
That is the truth. They will MAYBE, tell someone about it--Many years later. That is the history ob children who are victims of the sexual perverts who invaded Scouts and religion.
ReplyDeleteAnd, by the way, would you point me to the posts which actually are the teachings of our Creator?
Judy: Sure! Here's the best of the lot, taken from the Vatican website. I agree with every single word within it and have preached it more than once from the pulpit.
Deletehttp://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html
Fr. Tim
Father Moyle, cropping something from some other site is NOT the work of an Evangelist, at least not in the Church I belong to.
DeleteI have never before heard of an Evangelist who works from home. Must be nice- and, of course, not too risky.
Judy: Now you're just trying to be disagreeable. Let me count the ways.
Delete1. You asked me to 'point to you' what the Church actually taught. I gave you a link to do exactly that. What's your complaint? That I didn't type out the entire article for you and post it here? That's just stupid.
2. The Internet never existed before. For better or worse it now connects all of us together, opening new avenues into a person's day to make the Christian proposition. Unless you're a clairvoyant, I doubt would have seen anyone using this medium for the purposes of evangelization.
3. My house is also my office and place of employment. Plus with a tablet I am able to make use of those little in-between times that litter our daily lives to continue this ministry. Given that I've had 364,000 visits to this site in the past 12 months, I am certain that I am doing some good. How many folks have you witnessed today alone let alone over the past year? Can you say that your insults and rudeness has won any converts for Christ? No? I didn't think so. You're really not very good at it.
Fr. Tim
Father, this reply above indicates you should take yourself off to Downsview, or some other place of re-hab. You are not well. Judy
DeleteFather, I strongly suggest you talk the continuation of this site with your Spiritual Adviser, assuming you have one.
DeleteThe above response is a pretty good indicator you need some counselling.
Remember what an older Priest said to me one time when I complained there were not as many people at Mass that day. He said, and I will always be guided by the sage advice he gave, ---Father, Our Lord said to feed the Sheep. He did not say to count them.
For your own sake, and the sake of the Church, consider this carefully I implore you
Fr. D. J.
Fr. D.J.: Welcome to the blog! Yes I have a spiritual director/confessor. I'm pleased to tell you that he reads the blog daily and contacts me whenever he's concerned about anything I write. I also have four or five others who also do the same for me, including Seminary professors and at least one full fledged theologian. No one has had an issue with this thread to date. Would you be kind enough to flesh out your concern a little more fully? It would be much appreciated. I'm always open to be corrected.
DeleteFr. Tim
Rationalist, you just passed yourself , as you retreated
ReplyDeleteabout being an atheist, but you are not against any churches. Then you go on with the tired old line of- I only abject to religions when they seek to impose their beliefs on society as a whole.
Since you could not possibly know anything about God, since you do not believe he exists, would you use your above average intelligence and explain to us how a Religion should go about preaching about their religious beliefs? Anonymous in North Bay
You jump to support the gay concept in Scouts, but do not say that is an imposition on the history and long traditions of Scouting.
I guess you can suck and blow at the sane time
Anon: FYI, I would have refused to post your comment if you had actually succeeded in typing it out correctly. As it is, together with your numerous errors in logic and grammar is more than sufficient to demonstrate that you are arguing with a superior opponent when you take the floor with Rationalist. While we entirely disagree on the issue of God we can each see that we stand for the same virtues when it comes to loving those whom God has brought into our lives. He loves his family. He makes sacrifices to obtain the best for his children (paying for private school to get needed programming), serves his community, and strives to live by the Golden (Do unto others...) and Silver (Do no harm) Rules.How do I know this? Because in forums such as these, not once has he demonstrated the same lack of charity and common civility that you were aiming for with your final misfired insult.
DeleteYou will NEVER win anyone for Christ who is not now a believer by insulting them. Being boorish in expressing what we as Christians hold to be right or wrong conduct.only serves to alienate those you are called to reach out to... winning them to the efficacy of the Christian message by putting yourself at their service... to love them not because they agree with you but because they too are children of God, even if they don't recognize the appellation.
Fr. Tim
Scouting started out segregated by race and religion so it has broken with its tradition in the past before. Alexander D. Goode, a Jewish rabbi, helped break down those barriers for Scouts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_D._Goode) but is best known for another selfless act he did along with a priest and two ministers.
DeleteIt's not up to me to tell religions how to preach their faith, but you could certainly learn how from Fr. Tim.
And exactly how did you apply that in your reply to my post? I think it was as a hypocrite.
DeleteTim, my friend, you have quite the debate going on your blog! :)
ReplyDeleteThe issues the article and your blog raise are very interesting ones. As Christians we are called to be salt and light in the world. To seek and save the lost. Jesus went to the prostitutes and tax collector, the social bottom of the barrel of his day, and ate with them, met their needs, healed them and through those things ministered to them and they were often saved.
I think that the concept of gay children in scouts is kind of the same idea. We are to love the people, not their sin (being gay being a sin according to scripture, which is the point of reference from which the baptists and catholics are working from). Those kids who are gay are no worse then straight christian kids who lie, or steal, or gossip. As humans we have set a hierarchy of sin, but to God sin is sin. We are to be in the world not of the world and that is the only way we will reach those who don't believe. If we have no contact with those who don't believe then we will never be able to reach them. It is important to teach our kids this and to let them share their faith with all kinds of kids.
As a Christian parent, I understand the concern of how other children influence our own children. They are young, vulnerable and in the middle of developing their identity. I think that is where we as Christian parents need to be diligent in teaching our kids solid christian values based on what the bible says and how to seek God's will for themselves. Maybe we can use gay kids in scouts as an instrument to open some frank open discussion with our children. We can teach them that God doesn't love homosexuality, but he loves each kid regardless of their sexual orientation.
Being a Christian is a balancing act of being in the world to be a witness and to make it a better place, but not being influenced by the world so that it changes us to be accepting of those things that are displeasing to God.
Amanda a Christ follower who was raised in the Baptist Church, for the record ;)
As a Scout leader I don't see children as sinners. I see them as people growing up and learning to respect others and themselves. Sin is what their religion teaches and religions have so many definitions of sin I leave that up to the family.
ReplyDeleteWhat scouting gives children is an opportunity to challenge themselves, push their limits mentally and physically and learn to work with others who may not be the same as them. I have vegetarians in my troop, observant Jews, pagans, traditional Christians and fundamentalist Christians. I try to get them away from their electronic world and appreciating the common natural world we all share. I try to get them to be quiet and open to the world around them, to observe, to respect and to appreciate the world and others both in their troop and not. I would never impose a specific religious or non religious viewpoint on the Scouts and while they are free to discuss their views of religion, I make sure that if they do they are not disparaging others' beliefs or intimidating others to their opinion.
Sexuality plays no role in Scouts, and Scouts Canada has policies in place to try to make sure scouts are safe from adult or other scouts, from any sort of abuse. Scouts Canada is good organization, and I would advise children and their parents to join. I've had many parents come as volunteers and say Scout camp was one of the few times they could really talk to their son or daughter away from all the distractions that make up our daily life.
Amanda, you are so right. We in the Catholic Church bend over backwards in a sense of false ecumenism, trying to satisfy all, and forget about doing the Will of God first and last .Eve Grondin
ReplyDelete