04 December, 2009

Taken from some of the comments from this blog

reddog said... 
I don't think the problem is how many child abusing priests there are or whether the numbers in the priesthood are any greater than in the general population, although it is pretty sad that these kinds of rationalizations are being trotted out by a clergy desperate to prove they are no worse than anybody else. The problem is a laity who ignored the reports from their children that they were being sodomized, for decades and continued to sit quietly in the pews. The problem is that generations of children were raised to let themselves be sodomized by priests, without fighting back with every ounce of strength they possess. The problem is with a Catholic Church that demands absolute obedience from it's members no matter what their own consciences or private communications with God tells them. How much longer can a Church that operates in this manner continue to command the respect and support of a free people? The foulness is not in the individuals but in the institution itself. Deviant men do not find their way into the priesthood, they are created and nurtured by the Church, just as it creates and nurtures a laity that lays down for the foul predations upon their children, perpetrated in the name of the Church.
Fr. Tim Moyle said...
Reddog: What would you say if I granted you every point that you have made? Essentially I do. I accept that evil has worked within the structures and persons of the Roman Catholic Church. It, and they, have done terrible and sinful things in the past, present and future. But I also say that it is the Church that is founded upon the Apostolic witness, on the blood of the Christian martyrs, on the shoulders of the early Church fathers and Councils, and holds both the great commission and the Divine promise. So I ask you: am I to say that the power of sin, evil and corruption is stronger than that of the Holy Spirit given to the Church in Pentecost? Am I to say that the power of Satan was not broken over the Cross of Christ because the men and women that inhabit His Church are weak, sinful humans? Sorry Reddog, but if that is what you believe, then that is not something that I am willing to hold as true. My faith is first and foremost in Jesus Christ; He, who John Paul II offered as the answer to the great questions of life is the Savior in whose blood I claim some small membership in His Church. The Church cannot screw-up so perfectly as to thwart the plan of God. I stand with Peter as I await the Lords return. Fr. Tim


  1. Good points reddog, and loving rebuttal Fr. Tim.

    I know a dear sweet woman very well, who along with her younger sister was subjected to sexual abuse for a number of years at the hands of her father, a fourth degree member of the Knights of Columbus. The younger sister even went so far in trying to stop the pain as to go to their parish priest and report what was happening.

    The parish priest did not intervene or help the sisters in any way, this being the early 60's. Was the Church at fault because he did not know what to do, and in fact failed these young girls? Conventional wisdom (such as it was) at the time was to sweep it under the rug, as of little import, and that children were unreliable in daring to speak against a parent.

    That is not the case today, and we know more about the psychology of abusers and their victims than we did at the time.

    The older sister has a deep faith in Jesus, and brought communion to her father on his death bed, praying fervently for his salvation, even though he never admitted what he had done to them. She currently lives in peace that the evil that was done to her, and allowed by others who could have and should have known has been used for good by a God who loves her perfectly.

    The younger sister has lost her faith, is filled with self and other directed hatred, and has isolated herself from her siblings and her mother since her father's demise. She certainly has a valid reason for being angry, but is it productive to her personal well being?

    It now has a life of its own, compounded by the other disappointments of her life, failed relationships because of impossible expectations, and loneliness.

    Individuals who these women should have been able to trust let them down, and provided input for any of a number of outcomes, that still are and were in the hands of these two sisters, for God gave them each free will to choose life or death in any circumstance.

    Shall we blame the Knights of Columbus for not acting on something they did not know about? Should we blame the Church because a priest did not do what we know today to be the right thing?

    I prefer the older sister's response, which is to love when loving is difficult because that is the right thing.

  2. All I'm saying is that no one should give up their own beliefs of conscience in subordination to the teachings of the Church, no matter how primary they are. Standing up in dissent against what you believe to be wrong does not make you less of a Catholic, if a Catholic is what you percieve yourself to be and fellow members of the Church should think long and hard before condemning other Catholics just because the Church hierarchy does.

  3. Reddog: standing up against evil is fine... standing in dissent is something else entirely. I do and will point out whenever and wherever I think that something is wrong (ask my poor Bishop!) but I am not capable of standing in judgment against a teaching of the church.

    The history of the church is replete with examples of people calling the church back to holiness. If this is what you are calling for, then you are in great company. If you are implying that I have the right to stand up in dissent against the teaching of the church, then I am not your man.

  4. That's why you're one of them, Tim and not one of us.

  5. Fr. Tim:

    I am curious as to what reddog is one of, and what then he contemplates that you are one of. I am pretty sure that I am one of the them that you are one of, but, of course would like to know what them we are, in case we are in the wrong them.

    Though on second thought, I am not sure I am a them. I think I am a Me, a beloved Child of the Most High God, endowed with a free will to choose my pathway to salvation.

  6. Not a single priest has ever come forward with an unsolicited confession of abuse. Not a single priest has ever turned in a fellow priest for abuse. Every day, priests presume to tell perfectly good Christians, able to determine their own behavior, how to act, vote, behave in bed and any number of things that are no damn business of theirs.

    You're one of those not a single priests, Father Tim, who don't come forward to help, only to condemn those not in need of it, may your eternal soul burn in Hell everlasting with the other foul beasts that you are brother to.


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