tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1926891106758008587.post4928147279810807865..comments2024-01-01T21:57:26.021-05:00Comments on Where the Rubber Hits the Road: Insightful column from 'The Tablet' examining the excommunication of Sr. Margaret Mary McBrideFr. Tim Moylehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18030197987469327645noreply@blogger.comBlogger68125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1926891106758008587.post-71639965512145481912010-07-17T02:02:31.679-04:002010-07-17T02:02:31.679-04:00Tim, Have a safe and enjoyable fishing trip. Grea...Tim, Have a safe and enjoyable fishing trip. Great to get away for a while. Lord willing, we will continue the discussion with you sometime after you get back.Small Town Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13916492142790961736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1926891106758008587.post-5810439036649949992010-07-15T13:03:04.140-04:002010-07-15T13:03:04.140-04:00'say' not not 'so' (proof of my l...'say' not not 'so' (proof of my lack of concentration)<br /><br />Fr. TimFr. Tim Moylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18030197987469327645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1926891106758008587.post-38474985240698739212010-07-15T13:01:51.210-04:002010-07-15T13:01:51.210-04:00STG: Before I deal with the meat of your post, may...STG: Before I deal with the meat of your post, may I make a request? The Baltimore Catechism was replaced 20 years ago. It's formulations and expressions were found to be too narrow and incomplete as it was written with the assumption that people would possess certain concepts and base teachings that would permit them to properly interpret the catechism. The most recent catechism is written in a manner that is easier understood today. Would you be able to get your hands on a copy? The index is very detailed in guiding anyone to the appropriate teachings and it would be helpful if we worked from the same text and interpret it as the Church understands it today.<br /><br />Give me 24 hr and I'll post a response to your questions. Today is pretty packed already and I want to give what you so due consideration.<br /><br />Thanks.<br /><br />Fr. TimFr. Tim Moylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18030197987469327645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1926891106758008587.post-65990357298795891102010-07-15T12:20:59.760-04:002010-07-15T12:20:59.760-04:00Tim,
"3. "Ques. 265 Q. Is the Mass the ...Tim,<br /><br />"3. "Ques. 265 Q. Is the Mass the same sacrifice as that of the Cross? A. The Mass IS THE SAME SACRIFICE as that of the Cross."<br /><br />I just had another look at your comments where you answered this question. You said<br /><br />"Please note: 'IS THE SAME', 'CONTINUE THE SACRIFICE'. The Baltimore Catechism is saying exactly the same thing that I am. That the mass is a uniting with the ONE SACRIFICE of Jesus on the cross. If it were anything else, it would be absolutely USELESS! The only way that it has any merit is if it connects us today with the one sacrifice on the Cross!!"<br /><br />Tim, the question must be asked why do you believe you need the mass to have Christ's sacrifice have any merit or to be applied to you? Paul's epistle to the Hebrews talks about how Christ offered himself once as a sacrifice for sin. Where does it say anywhere in the Bible anything about a so-called mass being necessary to have this sacrifice applied to a believer?<br /><br />"But now once for all he has appeared at the end of the ages to take away sin by his sacrifice." Hebrews ch9 vs26 Saint Josephs NAB<br /><br />It clearly says His one sacrifice took away sin.<br /><br />It says nothing about needing an earthly man to hold a mass for this sacrifice of Christ to be applied. <br /><br />"Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment, so also Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many,..." Hebrews ch9 vs27,28 Saint Joseph's NAB.<br /><br />How does this once for all sacrifice of Christ apply to believers? Perhaps it is made more clear in other passages.<br /><br />"In him we were chosen, destined in accord with the purpose of the One who accomplishes all things according to the intention of his will, so that we might exist for the praise of his glory, we who first hoped in Christ. In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit..." Ephesians ch1 vs11 to13 Saint Josephs NAB<br /><br />So Christ by His grace (unmerited favour) chose those who He would give the gift of faith; those are the one's he sacrificed Himself for. The verse says He has also sealed them with the Holy Spirit. <br /><br />This means man has no part in this choosing. It is entirely by God's grace. They receive the gift of faith and believe that Christ died for them. There is not need for another intermediate system such as the mass to try to make Christ's sacrifice apply to them. It automatically applies to Christ's elect people.<br />Do this make sense to you Tim?<br /><br />More verses emphasize that is God who does the saving.<br />"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of the great love he had for us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ (by grace you have been saved)(UNMERITED FAVOUR), raised us up with him, and seated us with him the heavens in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come he might show the immeasureable riches of his grace in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus." Ephesians ch2 vs4 to 7.<br /><br />So this work of Christ is entirely by God's grace or unmerited favour because that is what grace is. We cannot merit becoming one of God's elect by masses or any other efforts. Simply believe in Christ's once for all sacrifice and you are saved, or one of the elect.Small Town Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13916492142790961736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1926891106758008587.post-3989434614999189972010-07-11T01:52:02.583-04:002010-07-11T01:52:02.583-04:00Wayne, you're asking me??? LOL!Wayne, you're asking <i>me</i>??? LOL!Janus Bellatorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05467165902363025714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1926891106758008587.post-61260323675006885972010-07-09T14:07:34.357-04:002010-07-09T14:07:34.357-04:00Lady Janus,
I know whatever I say you will probab...Lady Janus,<br /><br />I know whatever I say you will probably never agree. If you did agree, it would probably knock me off my chair. All I can say is the Bible commands christians to contend for the true faith. <br /><br />Jude wrote in his epistle to christians:<br /><br />"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." Jude vs3.<br /><br />The question is then, should christians obey God or men (women)?Small Town Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13916492142790961736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1926891106758008587.post-19854987567951516922010-07-08T16:32:19.999-04:002010-07-08T16:32:19.999-04:00"If I say some dogma is false, it is not insu...<i>"If I say some dogma is false, it is not insulting somone."</i><br /><br />Yes it is. You are insulting those who believe it is true, calling their judgment into question.<br /><br /><i>"You think what I believe is false..."</i><br /><br />Wrong. I think what you believe is up to you. That doesn't mean I think it's false. It just means it's not my flava.Janus Bellatorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05467165902363025714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1926891106758008587.post-74043406823505913782010-07-07T21:28:03.074-04:002010-07-07T21:28:03.074-04:00Lady Janus,
If I say some dogma is false, it is n...Lady Janus,<br /><br />If I say some dogma is false, it is not insulting somone. It has nothing to do with an individual. You think what I believe is false, but I don't consider that as meaning you are insulting me.Small Town Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13916492142790961736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1926891106758008587.post-13929740525288174052010-07-07T14:47:44.767-04:002010-07-07T14:47:44.767-04:00@ Wayne: "False" dogma? All dogma is fa...@ Wayne: "False" dogma? <i>All</i> dogma is false to somebody. Including yours.<br /><br />You'd get along with people a whole lot better if you didn't insult them before you even meet them.Janus Bellatorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05467165902363025714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1926891106758008587.post-13720653660575324122010-07-07T12:14:57.437-04:002010-07-07T12:14:57.437-04:00Tim,
I apologize if you have not deleted it. I b...Tim,<br /><br />I apologize if you have not deleted it. I believe you. I can't seem to find it. But I will repost something similar when I can. Thanks.Small Town Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13916492142790961736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1926891106758008587.post-83884818141516146912010-07-07T08:07:23.043-04:002010-07-07T08:07:23.043-04:00STG: Sorry. I do not know what you are referring ...STG: Sorry. I do not know what you are referring to. I have not deleted any comments from the blog and you have not offered anything offensive! Is it possible to repost?<br /><br />Fr. TimFr. Tim Moylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18030197987469327645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1926891106758008587.post-13344691337715693442010-07-06T23:01:25.271-04:002010-07-06T23:01:25.271-04:00You took my innocuous posting about repentance and...You took my innocuous posting about repentance and confessing to God to receive forgiveness off. How sad. Somebody maybe complained they didn't like it. Perhaps it doesn't fit with their false dogma about confession and penance. Should it be removed for that reason? It was not abusive, obscene, profane, libelous, or unreasonable, but was merely the truth from the Bible with a couple of Scriptures quoted to support it.Small Town Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13916492142790961736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1926891106758008587.post-61049280012890828822010-06-30T11:31:49.559-04:002010-06-30T11:31:49.559-04:00Dear Brother Wayne:
I am very grateful that you c...Dear Brother Wayne:<br /><br />I am very grateful that you concluded with the following: "I have given you what I believe is the truth. I don't know what more I can say."<br /><br />I am not grateful because maybe this will end, which you might think, but because you have given what "you believe" to be the truth.<br /><br />That is the very best that any one of us can do, give the best account we can of what we believe in our hearts to be the truth.<br /><br />You are a blessing.<br /><br />Let us take Hebrews, since you referenced it.<br /><br />Hebrews is not believed by students of it to have been written by Paul personally, since it bears none of his usual style methods in it, but that is of only minor concern, since it clearly is doctrinally consistent with him.<br /><br />But, though it in fact does not look much like a letter, it is clearly an exhortation to the Hebrews, comparing the New Covenant with the Old Covenant, and exhorting the Hebrews not to return to Judaism and its methods.<br /><br />You quoted Hebrews in your last comment: "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?" Hebrews ch2 vs 3,4<br /><br />"Signs and wonders and divers miracles." Divers means many and different, and the most different of these was the miracle of the Eucharist.<br /><br />The Eucharistic meal is a miracle. How else could it be described, unless you want to describe it as absolutely illogical lunacy. Call it the latter at your own peril.<br /><br />The actual living and breathing writers of the Gospels and Epistles, along with the people of the day believed that Christ was present in the Eucharist whenever they celebrated it together. The words of the Bible in the context of the time when it was written LITERALLY describe the Eucharist as the Church believes it to be.<br /><br />I do not require you to believe it to be sure that Jesus loves you and that He is working His miraculous love into your life daily.<br /><br />I too have given you what I believe is the truth, objectively, where the actual lived out faith supports the statements I have made to you.<br /><br />I am unable to throw out 1,500 years of Church teaching, and history because someone decided that he could reform what Christ created.<br /><br />But, I value your faith. I am prepared to wait until we meet in heaven, and let Jesus sort it out for us.<br /><br />Yours in Christ<br /><br />MichaelMichael Brandonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17557797099650457723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1926891106758008587.post-71005877685113903312010-06-29T17:06:40.070-04:002010-06-29T17:06:40.070-04:00MBrandon,
"You work so hard to be right. In ...MBrandon,<br /><br />"You work so hard to be right. In the face of objective truth, you cling to subjective truth, which ultimately cannot be wholly true at all."<br /><br />Michael, I have given you Scriptures from Paul's Epistle to Hebrews. The Holy Ghost inspired Paul to write the epistle. The words are not mine. Have you really read what the apostle said? Can you honestly say you have read it and understood chapters 7 to 10? <br /><br />We have examined the official books of the RCC which describe what the mass is. It is a continual offering for sin, as it is offered daily. <br /><br />Boettner says "Where there is a continual offering for sin, as when the sacrament of the mass is offered daily, it means that sins are really never taken away, and that those who are called priests pretend to continue the unfinished work of Christ." page 183 "Roman Catholicism"<br /><br />The apostle said near the beginning of the epistle to the Hebrews: "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?" Hebrews ch2 vs 3,4<br /><br />I have given you what I believe is the truth. I don't know what more I can say.Small Town Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13916492142790961736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1926891106758008587.post-71922215626752986822010-06-29T09:51:04.576-04:002010-06-29T09:51:04.576-04:00I inadvertently referred to Jesus as an apostle. O...I inadvertently referred to Jesus as an apostle. Of course he is not an apostle, but did choose the 12 apostles.Small Town Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13916492142790961736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1926891106758008587.post-26511974592783784102010-06-28T22:50:31.040-04:002010-06-28T22:50:31.040-04:00Wayne, Dear Brother:
You work so hard to be right...Wayne, Dear Brother:<br /><br />You work so hard to be right. In the face of objective truth, you cling to subjective truth, which ultimately cannot be wholly true at all.<br /><br />You read the bible and interpret it one way, not the way you were born into, but the way that you have discovered on your faith journey.<br /><br />Those of us who have stayed in the Catholic Church or returned to it interpret sacred scripture very differently.<br /><br />Your interpretation relies on your own intelligence, when you can make subjective statements that something which is deeply spiritual is not true, because it just couldn't be (like the Eucharist). The Church which Christ founded and which has remained intact, bloodied by not bowed, full of sinners, yet committed to the sinless One, has held to its beliefs since the earliest days. For the sake of these beliefs and the One who gave them to us, Catholic men and women have chosen martyrdom, over renunciation. If you threatened to kill me if I would not renounce the Eucharist, I would cling to my belief in it, because I have seen it. I know it to be profoundly true, in the Word of God, and in my own personal experience of it.<br /><br />If the life of the Church does not mirror in its own weakened human condition what the Living Word of God said, did and promised then it is a lie, a sham.<br /><br />So, Jesus promised us miracles in the Bible, and He has kept his end of that bargain.<br /><br />Why would the devil make a piece of consecrated bread bleed and turn to flesh? What would he gain by people increasing their faith in their Lord and Saviour, which was the fruit of that miracle?<br /><br />Why would the devil heal a man through the laying on of hands, of crippling arthritis, just so that man would dedicate his life to serving God for its remainder, regardless of what trials come his way? That would be self defeating.<br /><br />The belief of the earliest Christians who witnessed the Saviour, and those who followed shortly after is objective truth. They were there. They saw it with their own eyes. They took what He said, and put it into practice. They performed miracles as He promised.<br /><br />When you say your prayers as you prepare to go to sleep this evening, ask Jesus to make it very clear to you that Father Tim and I are liars and you should run away as fast as you can, or they are telling the truth and you should run as fast as you can towards them, or that all is well in the world, and there is room for us all in the Body of Christ.<br /><br />Drop all of your preconceived notions of what scripture says, and ask God to fill in any gaps in that wonderful knowledge that you already possess, for it is formidable, and I say that sincerely.<br /><br />I remain <br />Yours in Christ whom we do our best to serve.<br /><br />MichaelMichael Brandonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17557797099650457723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1926891106758008587.post-46351604448823476492010-06-28T20:52:40.557-04:002010-06-28T20:52:40.557-04:00Tim, Michael,
It is pointless to debate who is a...Tim, Michael,<br /><br />It is pointless to debate who is a real believer. What is important is what God has said in His Word about the basic truths of christianity. If your faith is in the Eucharist, I believe it is a serious error. Christ is not in the Eucharist. Christ is with His people, and His physical body is in heaven. It is not imaginable that Christ would allow himself to be called down to be in the Eucharist and kept in a container (taberncale) and carried about by men to be dispensed at will. The Bible does not support this doctrine.<br /><br />"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands." Acts 17:24 <br /><br />"...Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." Acts ch1 vs11<br /><br />"But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." Hebrews ch10 vs 12-14Small Town Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13916492142790961736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1926891106758008587.post-49515747284876146792010-06-28T20:10:37.838-04:002010-06-28T20:10:37.838-04:00Michael, Tim,
But Michael my friend, you are goi...Michael, Tim,<br /><br />But Michael my friend, you are going out in different tangents that have really nothing to do with the bottom line. Emotional arguments, claims of miracles, etc. don't really carry the authority of Scripture. The real issue is what does the Bible say about these things. <br /><br />You will find many examples and statments that are obviously figurative language. Examples such as when Jesus said he is the door.(John 10:7)<br />The Jewish writers often used figurative language. That was a custom.<br /><br />For example, the apostle Jesus said "This cup is the new testament in my blood..." Luke 22:20<br /><br />The cup of course was really just a cup; it was not the new testament or new covenant. The cup was actually referring to the wine. The wine was representative of the new covenant. <br /><br />When Jesus said "this is my body" and "this is my blood" again He was speaking figuratively. Jesus was referring to the bread as His body and the wine as His blood in a symbolic sense. This figuratively language was often used.<br /><br />After He had given the wine to his disciples, Jesus said "For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come." Right here shows that Jesus still regarded the wine which He had given them as wine. He referred to it as the fruit of the vine.<br /><br />Another important reason why the doctrine claiming the "real presence" is false is that eating the body and blood of Christ literally would be a form of cannibalism. That is what cannibalism is, eating flesh. That is forbidden in the Bible. Christians are forbidden to eat blood. So it cannot be the true body of blood of Christ.<br /><br />When Jesus said "He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life" Johne 6:54 he was speaking of the spiritual relationship between Himself and His people. There are many other examples of figurative language being used in the New Testament. Eating human blood was repulsive to the Jews and is contrary to Scripture and common sense.Small Town Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13916492142790961736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1926891106758008587.post-60670776508339033472010-06-28T14:14:17.316-04:002010-06-28T14:14:17.316-04:00Dear Brother Wayne:
I am very confused. We take ...Dear Brother Wayne:<br /><br />I am very confused. We take the bible literally when you want to, but not at other times.<br /><br />When Jesus was speaking to Peter (Matt 16:17-19), he first called him Simon son of Jonah, then he starts an important sentence when he says "I say to you." Have you ever tried to make sure your audience was listening to you? You say something like "I say to you", or in today's vernacular "Listen to me now."<br /><br />So, what followed mattered to Jesus and he said "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church." Jesus spoke Aramaic, and in Aramaic Peter and rock are the same word. It is in the Greek transliteration that the feminine word for rock must be made masculine for the now given name Peter.<br /><br />By the way, the early Church all believed that this is what Jesus said and meant. In Acts, the others looked to him as leader.<br /><br />OK, they didn't call him Pope. That term came into use later. But, then so did automobile. Not biblical. Guess we better go back to horses. Better dump that outboard motor on your boat too, Brother.<br /><br />But, you can twist that any way you want.<br /><br />As for the Eucharist, I have given you personal testimony, pointed you to valid Catholic interpretation of the scriptures, and even pointed you to the people of the day, and what they had to say about it. I have even brought to your attention approved miracles of the Eucharist. By the way, the Catholic Church takes miracles very seriously. It studies them for years, and even involves atheists in ther validation, because the truth of the occurrence is more important than trying to give an inch to the devil.<br /><br />Yet, your response is that it can't be taken literally, that miracles can be works of the devil, that whatever.<br /><br />I remember you saying when I told you about the conversion stories of some well known Protestants that they weren't really believers. Scott Hahn, who was a committed pastor prior to coming to believe in the Real Presence and the truth of the Catholic Church was far more anti-Catholic than you could ever be.<br /><br />So, in summary, the truth is only the truth if you, Wayne, say it is.<br /><br />God's got your head, brother. He wants your heart. You must be a laugh riot at your family gatherings.<br /><br />Try telling your wife that you read a book about her life, and so you know her intimately, and you don't need to know more about her. Jesus is about relationship, about us listening to Him no matter how or where he speaks.<br /><br />For example, this morning at morning prayer, three of us prayed over a woman friend who asked to come for prayer. Only one of us actually knew much about her personal story. Yet, during prayer all three of us had different visions, and one had a word of knowledge for her. All three were totally consistent with the issues that she has been facing personally, and also the scripture reading from the Litury of the Hours prayers we had prayed only minutes before was completely on point. She said to us, that she had felt God urge her to come to our morning prayer TODAY specifically.<br /><br />Believe what you want, Brother. We will continue to love you no matter what you do or where you are.<br /><br />But, Jesus wants to soften that hard self righteous heart of yours. He loved you enough to die for you, to be risen and to send His Holy Spirit to guide you.<br /><br />He sure loves you enough to make you grow in faith and trust in Him.<br /><br />God Bless You<br /><br />MichaelMichael Brandonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17557797099650457723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1926891106758008587.post-405758309212309332010-06-28T12:49:20.126-04:002010-06-28T12:49:20.126-04:00Oops. The opening line should read 'Let's ...Oops. The opening line should read 'Let's GRANT for a moment that the Catholic belief in the Eucharist is wrong....'Fr. Tim Moylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18030197987469327645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1926891106758008587.post-68449205393503242662010-06-28T12:48:14.116-04:002010-06-28T12:48:14.116-04:00STG: OK. Let's for a moment that the Catholic...STG: OK. Let's for a moment that the Catholic belief in the Eucharist is wrong. For the sake of argument, let's stipulate that It is not a 'real presence' of Christ but no more than a fanciful re-enactment of the last supper.<br /><br />Now, are Catholics still not Christian? Have they not been baptized into the 2nd birth of salvation spoken of in scripture? Do they not hold to the essential nature of what secularists would call 'the Christ event'? Do they not believe that salvation is won only through the blood of Christ shed on the cross of Calvary? Do they not base their claim to hope upon the evidence of the empty tomb of easter?<br /><br />My question to you is sincere: are Catholics not Christians? Are you claiming that they can not be saved by the blood of the cross unless they accept a fundamentalist interpretation held by believers such as you? <br /><br />It is my position that you cannot deny Catholic membership in that spiritual reality known in our theology as the 'Church of Christ' simply because you hold to a different interpretation of how scripture can legitimately be applied. So I'm not trying to convince you to become a Catholic. I am asking you to admit Catholics as being among those who belong to Christ.<br /><br />Fr. TimFr. Tim Moylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18030197987469327645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1926891106758008587.post-1929987896395673792010-06-28T12:34:11.542-04:002010-06-28T12:34:11.542-04:00Tim, Michael,
You place great emphasis on the cla...Tim, Michael,<br /><br />You place great emphasis on the claim the the body and blood of Christ is present in the Eucharist. The whole claim of what you are doing in the Mass therefore hinges on whether this is true or not. However, we do not believe you have it correct on the that. If your worship is centred in what you claim is the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist is false, then you are worshipping a false God, the Eucharist. Would you agree? You claim we are both worshipping the same Lord, but your Lord is, according to RC doctrine in the Eucharist, at least for a while. <br /><br />But, and this is a big but, the references to the Lord's Supper in the Bible were not speaking literally about Christ's body and blood being in the Eucharist. They were only figurative, representative, or symbolic. When Christ was sitting at the table at the last supper and said this is my body, referring to a piece of bread, where was Christ? Was he actually in the bread or was He sitting at the table?<br /><br />In the Mass, priests claim to bring Jesus Christ down on the alter in the form of bread and wine. But this is done in thousands of churches all over the world. Yet each one claims that Jesus' body and blood is literally present in his church in the form of the bread and wine. This supposedly occurs in thousands of places at the same time.<br /><br />But the Bible teaches Jesus' body physically went back into heaven at Pentecost, where He is interceding at the right hand of the Father, until he comes again.<br /><br />So it would seem this whole claim about the literal physical presence of Christ cannot be substantiated and makes no sense from a biblical point of view. Christ was physically sitting at the table; he was not literally in the bread and wine. It is nonsense to claim that He was.<br /><br />That being the case, the whole business of the Mass being some kind of unbloody continuing sacrifice falls flat.<br /><br />Hebrews makes it clear, that Christ sacrificed Himself once on the cross 2000 years ago. It cannot be continued. To claim that he is in the Eucharist and being offered up as a sacrifice for sins seems to deny the once for all sacrifice which Christ already completed. Man has no part or parcel in the sacrifice for sins which Christ already made. Is is a blasphemy to think man can do it. Why can't you see that?Small Town Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13916492142790961736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1926891106758008587.post-46307777927090642722010-06-28T09:04:48.837-04:002010-06-28T09:04:48.837-04:00Amen Father Tim.
We are just all brothers from di...Amen Father Tim.<br /><br />We are just all brothers from different mothers.<br /><br />God Bless You<br /><br />MichaelMichael Brandonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17557797099650457723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1926891106758008587.post-1145517136356111752010-06-28T08:59:44.927-04:002010-06-28T08:59:44.927-04:00STG: One last point. You may well believe that HO...STG: One last point. You may well believe that HOW we worship is the wrong way to do it, but can you understand that we DO worship the same Lord and Savior? Is it too far a leap for one who holds religious beliefs such as you, to concede that we are both trying to do the same thing, even if we disagree on how we are supposed to do it? That we both believe in the promise of the Hebrew Scriptures; that they were fulfilled in Jesus Christ whose life and teachings are recorded and explained in the Christian Bible; and that it is ONLY through Christ that any and all of the world can be saved?<br /><br />Why does acknowledging this simple fact, that we believe in the same God, Lord and Savior, threaten your beliefs in any way? Why must you close the door to God's mercy and grace by saying that Catholics are not saved, and that their worship could not possibly be animated by the Holy Spirit? That what we are arguing about is HOW to implement Scripture in the human models of Church and faith, not the veracity or validity of the scripture themselves?<br /><br />As I have said to you and others, I am not interested in or trying to convert anyone here! I am simply claiming that what I hold, believe and practice merits membership in the family of Christians. That as a Catholic, I have reason to hope to receive the gift of eternal life with the God of the Hebrew and Christian Bibles by claiming salvation under the blood of Christ alone.<br /><br />Then if we are all Christian, is it not more important to continue the work of the great commission in preparation for Christ's return than to fighting like children squabbling over which one of us "God loves best'? There are more than enough challenges to face to keep busy every Christian confession until His return. I think that He will be most pleased if all his adopted children were able to bring more believers into His sheepfold.<br /><br />Fr. Tim<br /><br />I eagerly await your answers.Fr. Tim Moylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18030197987469327645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1926891106758008587.post-59666886107391707402010-06-28T08:33:48.112-04:002010-06-28T08:33:48.112-04:00Dear Wayne:
You are working so hard to deny that ...Dear Wayne:<br /><br />You are working so hard to deny that Jesus Christ is present in the Eucharist.<br /><br />You have a head full of beautiful scripture and tons of knowledge of that scripture, which I greatly admire. <br /><br />It isn't about Father Tim or me, or the Roman Catholic Church. It's all about HIM.<br /><br />No Christian writer before about 500 AD wrote anything contrary to the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and of the sacrifice of the Mass. They were there or closely connected to it, so do you think they had a better perspective than some guys 2000 years later trying to interpret scripture - that many of them had a hand in writing.<br /><br />In my own posting this morning, I have pondered the concepts that you have presented, and scripture quotations.<br /><br />But, I have brought it back into the perspective of my personal lived experience of the Eucharist as I described in an earlier comment. <br /><br />I have also presented links to proven MIRACLES of the Eucharist that have softened the hearts of atheists, and non-believers.<br /><br />I have also provided a link to many of the writings of the early Church about the Eucharist, and what was believed at the time.<br /><br />http://freethroughtruth.blogspot.com/2010/06/is-eucharist-that-we-celebrate-real.html<br /><br /><br />We love you, Brother.<br /><br />MichaelMichael Brandonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17557797099650457723noreply@blogger.com